Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 3 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1401



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: My TL-15 Xboat Design
Re: Progress (was Re: FS Statistical impressions)
PE (was:Re: Jump troops (and then Joe goes off into left field))
Re: Privateering
The Templars
RE: Weird world UWPs
Re : Nuclear Warheads for T4
EA Query
Re: Deneb and Corridor in Year 0
Re: My TL-15 Xboat Design
Re: Re : Nuclear Warheads for T4
Re: plastic guns in the real world
Re: Trading Systems
The high tech offenders (LONG AND NUMERICAL!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 15:28:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: Re: My TL-15 Xboat Design

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
> Subject: Re: FF&S Write-up of TL-15 Xboat
> 
> On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Franklin W. Cain wrote:
> > I'd appreciate your feedback.  
> 
> AHA! You have run afoul of the same error people make again and again.
> 
> The Flight Computers on starships are NOT ordinary multi purpose
> computers, but massively redundant highly parallel milspec combat rated
> computer systems with some highly specialized computing subsystems, and
> the volume and mass includes much of the networking infrastructure
> required.

I was presuming that the "databanks" (whatever they may actually be) would
be *comparable* in volume, mass, etc., to starship computers.  I was
further presuming that if I used the "databanks" comparable to "flight"
computers, I'd have less storage capacity per computer than if I used the 
"databanks" comparable to "standard" (starship) computers, but by tacking
a huge number of these low-end "databanks" onboard, I could still have a
rspectable payload of data.  

(Remember that the Xboat is a far-future version of a *mail*truck*, with
the mail being measured in terms of mega-/giga-/terabytes, not in terms
of millions/billions/trillions of letters and magazines.)  

By the way, I was basing these presumptions on my real-world knowledge and
experience as a computer programmer in the US Air Force.  I wasn't an
electrician or a computer engineer, but I did talk with a few.  

For the purposes of my design, I was constructing a simile: the high-end 
"databanks" (the ones I presumed were similar to "Mod Std" computers) are
to current-day multi-gigabyte hard drives as the low-end "databanks" (the 
ones I presumed were similar to "Mod Flt" computers) are to current-day 
megabyte hard drives.  

Since Mr. Miller and GDW *never* published any data in any of the official 
products for constructing ships (and other items of future technology) to
cover this area, I was extrapolating from existing sources a *possible* 
solution.  

<aside>
Well, actually, in CT, Book 2 listed "CPU" capacity for various computer
models and required space for various programs.  However, their assertion
that a Library program, one containing the millions of millions of
*millions* of ... (you get the idea) ... of data that an *interstellar*
civilization would have would take only 1 or 2 "units" of storage space,
but an escape-and-evasion program could conceivably take 5+ such storage
spaces, was somewhat ludicrous to this computer professional.  
(No offense intended.)  
</aside>

I never stated that my suggestion was flawless, or even very good for that
matter.  I just offered it as *a* suggestion.  I'd like to know how you
resolved the issue of "capacity-vs-expense" (11,000 worlds producing so
much "mail" vs. an Imperium that has to *affordably* move this mail
traffic).  

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 15:25:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: Progress (was Re: FS Statistical impressions)

At 11:15 AM 6/3/97 -0400, Brett Fishburne wrote:
>ACK!  Clearly I was educated by Jesuits...

Maybe I wasn't so wrong, please look below:

>At 11:38 PM 6/2/97 -0700, John R. Snead wrote:

<snip my Dark Ages reference>

>>If you are referring to Europe's "Dark Ages" you are entirely incorrect.
>>Crop rotation, improved horse collars, windmills (borrowed from Central
>>Asia) Stirrups (borrowed from Asia), Gunpowder (borrowed from Asia),
>>mechanical clocks (the basic for modern gear technology) all were invented
>>or brought into Europe from 500 AD-1300 AD.  In many ways, this era had a
>>faster rate of technological progress than the Roman Empire. [1]

OK, you cite 3 inventions in 800 years.  I'll also give you the Heavy plow
and use of horses instead of oxen.  The stuff borrowed doesn't count (it
actually makes my point if that is stuff that brought Europe out of the Dark
Ages) as in "The Long Night" there was no one to borrow from.  Let's see
when else do we see this level of advancement...hmmmm...how about stone age?
Rock as a tool (covers lots of inventions right there), fire (management and
benefits therefrom), farming (as opposed to gathering), paint (for the cave
paintings), and language.  None of these are small advances, but let's take
a close look at what you're saying about the dark ages.  The "technological"
jumps made in 800 years stack up pretty unfavorably against the 100,000
years of advances made by Neanderthals.  Granted the Neanderthals had more
time, but I think you'd have to agree that any one of Neanderthal inventions
DRAMATICALLY altered their lifestyle whereas the inventions in the Dark Ages
PERPETUATED an existing life style.

>>The inventions I listed as borrowed from Asia (generally from China) were
>>imported by Westerner travelers, the rest were invented by Europeans, all
>>during the "Dark Ages".  The only time the technological progress of a
>>large society ceases is when it is actively falling apart.  The rate of
>>progress may be slow (and often is) or it may be rapid, but it happens. 

Uhm, maybe one of the canon guys would want to correct me, but a 1700 year
loss of empire could reasonably be considered "falling apart."  

>>The concept of the "Dark Ages" is a myth made up by scholars in the
>>Renaissance to make themselves feel good, and promulgated by narrow-minded
>>Victorians, it is not accepted as valid by any modern scholars of the
>>history of science and technology. 

Please pass on the references.  I searched the net as thouroughly as a
couple of hours would allow and the only reference I found to strong
technical achievements in medieval times was Ms. White.  The "big advances"
I'll argue, seem puny even within the scope of their times.  Shouldn't we
also count big negatives as a sense of the scope of the technology of the
times?  Shouldn't the polution of rivers negatively effect the technology
level of the Industrial Age and shouldn't the lack of hygene in big cities
(supported by the agricultural advances noted above) be counted against the
tech level of the "Dark Ages?"

>>Many worlds would have died or sunk to barbarism during the Long Night,
>>but some would rise from it again, and I'd imagine of the easily habitable
>>(say Atm 7, Hydro 4-9) worlds would have continued to progress (albeit
>>slowly in most cases).  Humans don't sit around and stagnate for 1700
>>years, ever. 

Been to Egypt?  How about Babylon?  Mesepotamia?  No slam against these
countries, but the cultures that were originally there did stagnate for
hundreds of years until outside influences renewed them.  They weren't the
only ones either.  Given a sense of scale, it is not unreasonable to expect
that this could happen during the long night.

More importantly, how can "[t]he rate of progress be slow" in worlds which
have "died or sunk to barbarism?"  Seems to me that the rate of progress
would be negative and solidly negative at that.  Why is it reasonable to
expect that a world which once had high tech and lost it could return to
that tech level faster than a world which had never reached the high tech?
The trip from TL-9 (us right now, right?) to TL-13 is thought to take 4000
years in Traveller, right?  So if a world fell to barbarism (TL-0?) in one
generation (mighty fast, but give me latitude) from even TL-12, you would
expect that it would take 5-10,000 years to recover at best--still well past
the 1700 years available in the long night.  Maybe these folks would be TL-1
by now.  If it took 3-400 years to go to barbarism, maybe they are still TL-0!

Brett "It still sounds like 'Dark Ages' to me" Fishburne

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 97 20:36 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: PE (was:Re: Jump troops (and then Joe goes off into left field))

In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.970524113918.26012A-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

<< As you know, Hans, when we were doing the Econ stuff for Pocket Empires 
we ran into that problem head-on.  Making it perfectly realistic (well, 
as realistic as possible - I've yet to find two economists who agree on 
every issue) would have made the danged econ rules so difficult and tedious 
as to make them worthless.  So, we ended up using comprehensive yet 
limited definitions for a few key concepts, glossing over the rest, and 
essentially trying for believability and internal consistency in effort 
to achieve something that was playable and Travelleresque. >>

Just finished reading PE, and I think y'all did a good job. Few typos that 
I noticed (the Empire of the Seven Stars turns into the Empire of the Six 
Suns a couple of times, and I think the example family tree is upside 
down), and it seemed to make sense. A few niggles:

1. Put the tables in the main body, not (or as well as) collected at the 
end. I don't like having to flip back and forth.

2. How do you work out the Social Standing of a ruling family?

3. Is there any way of converting, say,  a USP into ATT/DEF values?

4. This is just *begging* to be computerised - any possibility? (SimEmpire, 
anyone?) 

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:21:07 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Re: Privateering

The Commander wrote:
- -----------------------------------------------
The proposal on International Starship issues has made me think of the
question of Privateering in the early 3rd Imp.  I remember that back in MT
days, Pirates could get a "Letter of Marque" From a Sector Duke (or Faction
Leader as it was in MT) where they could only prey upon ships of an enemy
nation.

I don't remeber exactly, but I believe basicaly your govt gives you
missions, but if you're caught by the enemy, they don't even acknowledge
your existance (FNORD!)  You are then subject to the enemy's piracy laws.

Being an ex-privateer of the Domai...er...Terran Confed, I am interested in
how Cleon deals with piracy and privateering.  Perhaps the Privateer could
be considered a 4th class or extra-teritorial ship?
- -----------------------------------------------

I imagine Letters of Marque are around in Mileu 0.  A Letter of Marque
entitled the bearer to seize or destroy the assets of an enemy, and granted
a certain legal immunity for those actions (immunity from the laws of the
government that GRANTED the Letter of Marque).  The advantage of this is
the granting nation gets a free naval asset (albeit not a Ship of the Line)
and is able to hurt an enemy state without expending resources.  If the
privateer is caught, the granting government can either repudiate the
Letter of Marque, or simply ignore the situation, or use the situation as
an act of provocation to declare war (you are holding our loyal servant
Commander X?  Prepare to feel the might of our fleet!).

As for Pirates (unMarqued privateers), I suspect Cleon would handle them
just like every other government in history has handled hostile pirates.
They would be declared wolves and hunted down, or if they were strong
enough the Imperium would attempt to co-opt them by making them Privateers.

I think in the Mileu 0 Imperium you have a couple of sources for Letters of
 Marque (or their equivalents)

1.  The Imperium.  It strikes me that when the Imperium grants an
exploitation charter for a company to effectively rule a world, the
Imperium is granting that company governmental powers and aauthority,
including the right to arm and maintain a military.  That is a kind of
Letter of Marque, in that the company could seize ships entering their
chartered territory with full legal authority.  The Imperium probably would
be hiring some more "traditional" privateers with Letters of Marque as
well, to disrupt the economies of rival Pocket Empires and to reduce the
piracy problems within the Imperium itself.  As for the Civil Disarmament
regulations, since these vessels would be sponsored by the Imperium or a
major noble, they would easily fit into the Class IV definition.

2.  Megacorporations.  OK, so the Megacorps are not governments, but they
have interests just like a government, and they have trans-national goals
and animosities just like a government.  If you have a corporation that's
big enough, they would occasionally find a need for a fighting starship
force, and they might just sponsor some privateers to keep such a fighting
force on retainer (and to make life uncomfortable for the competition).
This one is as much piracy as privateering.

3.  Lesser Nobles.  Based on the M:0 Sourcebook, it seems that some nobles
weild a goodly amount of clout and power, and have their own military
forces (or strongly influence portions of the Imperial military).  It might
be in these nobles' best interests to have a privateer or two on retainer
to intimidate rivals, build a case for their own military buildup, or even
to discredit the Imperium.  This one would seem to be a VERY dangerous game
to get into; the privateers involved in things like this are really
pirates, and would probably be the worst of the bunch, and likely the
meanest as well.


Eye Patch firmly affixed,
Steven Charlton
Scourge of the 23 Cubicles

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 16:35:37 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: The Templars

Sort of on topic: related to the recent discussions about the Templars in
history
and what their counterparts in the Imperium might be like, the History Channel
is showing a program on the Templars tonight at 10:00 EST. From the blurb:

>10:00/7:00 History Undercover. The Hidden Treasure of the Templars.
>Rennes-le-Chateau in southern France is home to one of the century's
>greatest conspiracy theories. For over a century there have been rumors
>about treasure buried beneath its streets. This program sets out to
>solve the mystery and to separate fact from fiction. [TV G]

Ought to be fun!

Paul Darius Owensby
pauld@athens.net
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:35:52 -0400
From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@cyber-wizard.com>
Subject: RE: Weird world UWPs

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When I was still ref'ing a campaign, almost all of my worlds had some =
indigenous minor race on them.  This actually helped a little with =
coming up with ideas for adventures.  There were always problems with =
natives that had been treated badly during human settlement as well... =
or Aslan settlement.. or...

- -----Original Message-----
From:	Tony Zbaraschuk [SMTP:tonyz@eskimo.com]
Sent:	Friday, May 30, 1997 11:58 PM
To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:	Weird world UWPs

Do remember that not all worlds are colonized by humans.  IIRC,=20
Milieu 1100 has an average of 1-2 worlds/subsector with minor race
populations.  So a high-pop waterworld could be a race of
intelligent octopi, or possibly a colony of Dolphins seeded
by the Rule of Man, or ...

Suggested reading: Alan Dean Foster, CACHALOT.


Tony Z


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Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 16:52:14 -0400
From: Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re : Nuclear Warheads for T4

>Also, a nuke is a nuke is a nuke. You need the same critical mass
>regardless of tech level to achieve a chain reaction. So why does the >bore size decrease with TL ? Ar=e warheads getting =longer as tech >advances ? :-).

I believe (I could be WRONG--anyone out there with more insight please
correct any misconceptions) I read somewhere--a long time ago..so take
this with a grain of salt--that critical mass it the mass needed at
"natural" densities.  If I remember correctly its more of a critical
mass for a given density (kind of makes sense it you spread out the
warhead over a volume the size of the moon you wouldn't expect it to go
off.)  So as your tech allows you to have better techniques of achieving
the mass/densities required the actual amount of mass required may go
down (at higher densities the "percieved" mass around any given atom of
the bulk would appear to be higher--core neutrons have a smaller chance
of escaping the core without collisions with other atoms).  (this is for
fission)

For fusion there is no critical mass and once the you have the right
ranges of temperature and density you get a reaction.

....Out on a limb....please correct mistakes

TT

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:57:27 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: EA Query

Thinking back to when EA came out in the US, I recall several people on the
list stating that the 3D damage limit had gone for energy weapons, lasers
and gauss weapons (?).  Is this covered in the addition of explosive
damage, or is there actually a rule somewhere that states the limit is
gone? I've looked, and can only find it by inference.

Another thought - it would be nice if the weapons had a code on their
listing of the form 'SBA' (Single shot, Burst, Autofire) to stop you having
to interpret the details from the text!

Thanks

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:43:57 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Deneb and Corridor in Year 0

>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>
>>>Now, the new, virgin worlds *are* out there, but only when the 3I gets past
>>>Deneb and into the Marches. And a lot of those would have been touched by
>>>the Vargr, especially in Deneb and Corridor. And the expansion into that
>>>reason is explosive.
>>
>>I disagree. The speed with which the Imperium expanded into Deneb and the
>>Spinward Marches indicates (to me) that the met almost no problems on the
>>way. Certainly not active corsair problems. IMO Deneb, Corridor and the
>>rimward half of the sectors immidiately corewards of them were comparatively
>>open. Any Vargr worlds would be low- to mid-tech. When the Imperium moved
>>into these areas it attracted the Vargr from further coreward and the
>>Imperium abandoned their settlements coreward of the Spinward Marches/Deneb/
>>Corridor sector border.
>
>I think I disagree. I don't think the Vargr were a pushover, especially in
>Corridor and the Coreward end of Deneb. Various CT and MT sources mention
>the Vargr Pacification Campaigns which ran until the late 100s, early 200s
>to ensure safe passage to the Marches. I can see a lot of the Imperial
>fleet getting dragged behind the claw if the megacorporations started
>screaming about raiders.
>
>Dom
>
>

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:46:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: My TL-15 Xboat Design

On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Franklin W. Cain wrote:
 
> I never stated that my suggestion was flawless, or even very good for that
> matter.  I just offered it as *a* suggestion.  I'd like to know how you
> resolved the issue of "capacity-vs-expense" (11,000 worlds producing so
> much "mail" vs. an Imperium that has to *affordably* move this mail
> traffic).  

My point is that they were not flight computers, and using the rules for
such to create them wouldn't work.

As such your idea give a poor picture of the actual economics of how the
X-boat system works, as these things aren't computers, per se.

How I 'handled' it was pretty much the same way I laid it out...the X-boat
'databanks' aren't computers, but whatever the TL-15 equivalent of very
large RAID (Redundant Arrays of Inexpensive Drives for those not in the
acronym business) systems were, and the X-Boat tender itself contained
smaller versions of the same things, downloading the incoming data,
deleting it from the X-boat banks after, and then uploading the outgoing
data headed in the direction the X-boat was going.

These systems have never been well detailed, so I never tried to detail
them.

Data densities at TL-15 have got to be quite staggering, and since an
X-boat has tons and tons of displacement for these databanks, I suspect
that the X-boat network easily managed to stay within the 'bandwidth'
required for the Imperium's traffic...if one Xboat is filled up, or a
route continually overloads, they'll throw more X-boats into the traffic
stream.

Think of it as a switched packet network with LOTS of space
between packets; you can ramp up packet density quite a bit before you
start seeing collisions. I wouldn't be surprised if the heavily traveled
interior lanes of the Imperium have _hundreds_ of X-Boats moving through
daily.

The switches are the X-boat tenders and their stations.

Remember, space is big, really, really mind-bogglingly big. An X-boat
might hold several megaterabytes of data (remember, it may be carrying
material meant for the farthest reaches of the imperium at any given time)
so even at the rate a TL-15 society generates data, I suspect data STORAGE
technology will keep up, and throwing another X-boat into the breach
will probably work for some time. 

(Today, storage available to the average PC user is three to four orders
of magnitude greater than it was ten years ago, and they show no real sign
of slowing down anytime soon...and if we could just eradicate Windows 95
we might even be able to use that space for something useful ;-) 

Also, the vast majority of canon has revolved around the Spinward Marches
which are the FRONTIER of the Imperium. A standard X-boat on the
Vland-Core route will probably be much larger than the X-Boats used on
frontier routes, too.

I suspect that the real bottleneck (other than jumpspace time) is dumping
these gargantuan amounts of data into the planetary networks. I suspect
that really BIG customers have dedicated X-boat tenders. and on some
routes, dedicated X-boats (Can you IMAGINE the traffic that say, Nassirka
generates to their headquarters and back out on a daily basis!!!???)

This already happens here on earth...Gateway Computer has their own, LARGE
UPS branch right there on their loading dock, and lots of places have UPS
and FedEx delivery people dedicated to single customers. The UA, here, is
its own zip code.

When that much traffic is cruising through an Imperium subsidized service,
we can see why X-boat rates are so low.

Computer technology throughout Traveller has been rather poorly detailed,
so I'm leery of trying to use the rules that are in place for generating
general purpose systems, since all the rules are for specialized systems, 
such as flight computers.

OTOH, I never had a player who wanted to use an X-boat for anything,
either.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 18:47:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@peterboro.net>
Subject: Re: Re : Nuclear Warheads for T4

On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Andy Brick wrote:
> 
> Also, a nuke is a nuke is a nuke. You need the same critical mass
> regardless of tech level to
> achieve a chain reaction. So why does the bore size decrease with TL ? Are
> warheads getting 
> longer as tech advances ? :-).

   Warheads typically use sub-critical masses, the more efficient the
design, the less mass you need to achieve criticality in the reaction.
Nukes work by artificially creating the conditions necessary to fission,
without necessarily needing critical mass. (Which is the mass needed for a
*spontaneous* reaction!)

   Also, consider that beyond TL12 that gravitic devices come into play to
increase the efficiency of (and dispense with the need for fission
triggers for) fusion weapons (H-bombs).

- -- DLH                                 lhadley@peterboro.net

http://text.peterboro.net/~lhadley/Profile.html

  "Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win." - TOPGUN motto.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 22:48:47 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: plastic guns in the real world

On Mon, 02 Jun 1997 08:33:14 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:

> The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net> writes:
> >Actually, the so-called plastic gun that supposedly was 'invisible' to
> >airport x-ray machines was neither all-plastic nor invisible to the X.
> >In reality it was a Glock 9mm with a plastic coating on most of the
> >exterior. The major components are still steel, it is very visible to

Incorrect.  The Glock is not "plastic coated".  The receiver, trigger,
and magazine are all made of their special polymer material.  There is
a steel spring in the magazine, though.

If left intact, an x-ray machine operator not trained to identify the
weapon will probably let it through.  A trained operator, OTOH,
catches it every time.  Problems arise when the weapon is disassembled
and stored in individual pieces (ie: the familiar shape of the
receiver will only show up under the newest x-ray machines).

> >x-ray scanners and metal detectors, and it is fairly common. The
> >confusion was (I believe) caused by a British tabloid raving about
> >invisible terrorist weapons; but they could have been repeating an
> >American rag. To the best of my knowledge, 'all-plastic' guns are still
> >extremely experimental and almost always a)one-shot weapons that 2) use
> >metal bullets.
> 
>    American movies don't help.  In the second "Die Hard" movie (the one
> in which he makes a call from a Pac Bell pay phone in a D.C. airport),
> the hero rants about the bad guys carrying Glocks that won't be picked
> up by the metal detectors.  Ignoring the titanium steel frames must make 
> for good theater.

!?!  As I stated above, the receiver (ie: frame) is polymer and is
designed to actually *absorb* some of the recoil (which surprised
many, considering lighter weapons normally have *more* felt recoil).
The slide and barrel are both metal, however, as is the ammunition.

The DH2 writers even had Bruce Willis' character refer to the Glock as
a "ceramic gun".  All stirred up by reports of alleged sales of an
"undetectable" weapon to Libya in 1985 (no guns were ever shipped, but
it did not stop the media from jumping on the bandwagon and ignoring
simple facts).

>    In the Clint Eastwood movie about the American Secret Service, the 
> bad guys has a ceramic, double barreled pistol made.  He still has to sneak
> in the very metal bullets.   

Probably would have had a better chance smuggling a bow and a quiver
of arrows :)

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 19:16:04 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Trading Systems

At 07:32 AM 6/3/97 EST, Frederick wrote:
<Snip>...
>
>What system do you use for trading activities?...

Our group uses the rules as published in T4 - liberally sprinkled with
patrons, referee-decreed fudges (for encounters), etc. It generally works
pretty well (only 4 games' worth so far, though...)


- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:54:44 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: The high tech offenders (LONG AND NUMERICAL!)

Here is the complete list of worlds in the FS data that have a TL D or E. 
Some are plausibly ruined sites, or research facilities, but there are a
lot of them with huge numbers of people, and should be taken down a notch
or two in TL level. I can see a few worlds at this level, but this is too
many. A TL-E world in the CORE sector with 90 million people??? 

High Tech Worlds				
sector	hex	name		uwp		population
ant	1216	Kuush.		A110442-D	30000
ant	0333	Adshaa.		A323310-D	8000
ant	2638	Khikin.		B8AA56B-D	100000
ant	0734	Irash Bu.	B201000-D	0
ant	0419	Gardiaagash.	A421787-D	10000000
ant	1219	Irkguushgii.	A000664-D	6000000
cdr	1209	Kaasu		AA7A940-D	8999999000
cor	0402	Apge		B772558-D	100000
cor	2837	Igla		B414553-D	900000
cor	1821	Shar .		B78A200-D	400
cor	2136	Kiir  .		A77A000-D	0
cor	1123	Guuirk .	A100000-D	0
cor	3033	Ashmelam.	A424636-D	9000000
cor	3218	Kaskii		B300767-E	90000000
dag	0111	Upag		A210630-D	3000000
dag	1431	Argi		A330A98-D	30000000000
dag	0230	Dudin		B9CA756-D	50000000
dag	1016	Ushra		B625A77-D	90000000000
dag	0201	Kuuem.		B310100-D	10
dag	2119	Khandi		B222ACE-D	40000000000
dag	0639	Islin  .	B120400-D	30000
dag	1635	Kuuguu .	A354552-D	200000
dag	1640	Lenashuuk	A7A8888-D	700000000
dag	2413	Nirkinishi .	A400758-D	70000000
dag	2020	Zarushbiish .	A310000-D	0
dag	0803	Ashuukhuugu .	A231354-E	6000
del	0823	Kamarka.	B100100-D	60
del	1405	Apusni.		A100455-E	50000
del	2110	Aamgamush.	B100323-E	6000
for	0537	Khalu		A524624-D	4000000
for	0338	Setten		A529A94-D	40000000000
for	2636	Zukhin		B2458A9-D	500000000
for	0803	Gaan  .		B230452-D	70000
for	1533	Gemam .		AA8A9AB-D	4000000000
for	1537	Uugii .		B000000-D	0
for	3020	Lakiri.		B79A347-D	8000
for	3206	Gaiiriim .	B000214-D	900
for	2730	Happin Belt	A000887-D	800000000
gus	2313	Ed		A57AAEE-D	80000000000
gus	2513	Masa		A221AAB-D	10000000000
gus	2839	Kadar		B442ACA-D	60000000000
gus	2224	Usdiki		B664658-D	6000000
gus	1412	Uumge En .	B83A126-D	70
gus	2716	Shakhamash	B94A996-D	1000000000
gus	1930	Unlardigard	B3108AD-D	600000000
ile	1601	Kapa		B533AB9-D	70000000000
ile	2013	Atte		B529AAC-D	70000000000
ile	0410	Umuu  .		A200659-D	9000000
ile	0729	Lirgadi .	B000335-D	6000
ile	1021	Dlan		B8D1797-E	60000000
ile	2101	Shume		B11087A-E	600000000
lis	1220	Uo		A000AEB-D	10000000000
lis	0412	Olny		A569ABF-D	10000000000
lis	0934	Paran		B898A94-D	20000000000
lis	1408	Adawi		A7948AB-D	800000000
lis	0134	Uundas.		B337000-D	0
lis	2905	Criideu		B635744-D	30000000
lis	3113	Kimuum .	B423421-D	70000
lis	0927	Laadliag.	B97A000-D	0
lis	1311	Kuunguu .	B420131-D	60
lis	1514	Irzemuu .	B350100-D	80
lis	0227	Shuna		A385643-E	9000000
mas	0223	Huon		B100A57-D	90000000000
mas	1104	Arar		A2338BA-D	300000000
mas	3211	Porto		B25679C-D	20000000
mas	1910	Khishan		A1009B9-D	4000000000
mas	2308	Dumeras		A789653-D	7000000
mas	3122	Luuuu .		A000100-D	80
mas	1019	Kuush  .	B110597-D	600000
mas	1328	Kiimda .	A100368-D	6000
mas	0402	Kaggushus	B442798-D	20000000
mas	1601	Ishbe Na.	B000000-D	0
mas	0134	Kuui Shega.	B000447-D	60000
mas	0740	Kuirkkazar.	A1008AD-D	100000000
mas	0839	Karker Uu .	A100510-D	700000
mas	0720	Khiian Ark .	A100348-D	2000
mas	0720	Khiian Ark .	A100348-D	4000
mas	2718	Uushap Sha .	A100ACH-D	90000000000
mas	0314	Ergo		A200766-E	20000000
mas	2407	Wynd		B310435-E	50000
mas	1029	Lagna		B1108BC-E	100000000
mas	2731	Paiim Ka.	B100000-E	0
mas	0720	Kuamirar .	A100362-E	2000
mas	0720	Kuamirar .	A100362-E	4000
mas	0530	Kharluunduum .	A100655-E	6000000
zar	1727	Lianma		A100423-D	40000
zar	2501	Kaami .		A100100-D	70
zar	2320	Minshe .	A636459-D	40000
zar	3133	Shalika .	A100466-D	70000
zar	1140	Amkhuu Ma.	A322100-D	20
zar	3119	Rinsarag .	A100220-D	500
zar	3214	Kharmi Ga .	B100777-D	40000000
zar	0422	Nidaakhiin .	A100100-D	70

So I did a little poking at my old DGP data too...here are the
M0 values and corresponding M1100 values for many of the worlds
(inexplicably I'm missing a few sectors of the data in the M1100 database)

Then and now			
sector	hex	M0_UWP		M100_UWP
ant	0333	A323310-D	 A32357A-F
ant	0419	A421787-D	 A421564-F
ant	0734	B201000-D	 A201136-F
ant	1216	A110442-D	 A110558-G
ant	1219	A000664-D	 A00088C-F
ant	2638	B8AA56B-D	 A8AA7BD-F
cor	0402	B772558-D	 A772997-F
cor	1123	A100000-D	 A100134-G
cor	1821	B78A200-D	 A78A372-F
cor	2136	A77A000-D	 A77A5AD-G
cor	2837	B414553-D	 B414ADG-F
cor	3033	A424636-D	 A424588-G
cor	3218	B300767-E	 A300A98-F
cdr	1209	AA7A940-D	 AA7A9CD-G
dag	0111	A210630-D	 A210A76-F
dag	0201	B310100-D	 A310200-F
dag	0230	B9CA756-D	 B9CA9CE-F
dag	0639	B120400-D	 A1206AC-F
dag	0803	A231354-E	 A231557-G
dag	1016	B625A77-D	 A625943-G
dag	1431	A330A98-D	 A330ACC-F
dag	1635	A354552-D	 A354476-F
dag	1640	A7A8888-D	 A7A8A76-F
dag	2020	A310000-D	 A310554-F
dag	2119	B222ACE-D	 A222A87-F
dag	2413	A400758-D	 A4007B9-F
del	0823	B100100-D	 A100435-F
del	1405	A100455-E	 A100434-G
del	2110	B100323-E	 A100433-G
for	0338	A529A94-D	 A529ADB-F
for	0537	A524624-D	 A524973-F
for	0803	B230452-D	 A230321-F
for	1533	AA8A9AB-D	 AA8A558-F
for	1537	B000000-D	 A000303-F
for	2636	B2458A9-D	 A2459CB-G
for	2730	A000887-D	 B000AAD-G
for	3020	B79A347-D	 A79A557-F
for	3206	B000214-D	 A00025A-G
gus	1412	B83A126-D	 A83A468-G
gus	1930	B3108AD-D	 B3109AB-G
gus	2224	B664658-D	 A6649EF-F
gus	2313	A57AAEE-D	 B57AA7A-F
gus	2513	A221AAB-D	 B221AAA-F
gus	2716	B94A996-D	 A94A99A-G
gus	2839	B442ACA-D	 A442948-F
lis	0134	B337000-D	 A337200-G
lis	0227	A385643-E	 A385A98-G
lis	0412	A569ABF-D	 A569964-F
lis	0927	B97A000-D	 A97A110-F
lis	0934	B898A94-D	 A898A74-F
lis	1220	A000AEB-D	 B000A98-F
lis	1311	B420131-D	 A420599-G
lis	1408	A7948AB-D	 A794AB9-F
lis	1514	B350100-D	 A350243-G
lis	2905	B635744-D	 B635A86-F
lis	3113	B423421-D	 A423679-G
mas	0134	B000447-D	 A000100-G
mas	0223	B100A57-D	 B100948-G
mas	0314	A200766-E	 A20099B-G
mas	0402	B442798-D	 A442AA7-G
mas	0530	A100655-E	 A100579-G
mas	0720	A100348-D	 A100321-G
mas	0720	A100362-E	 A100321-G
mas	0720	A100348-D	 A100321-G
mas	0720	A100362-E	 A100321-G
mas	0740	A1008AD-D	 A100684-F
mas	0839	A100510-D	 A100576-G
mas	1019	B110597-D	 A110720-G
mas	1029	B1108BC-E	 A110A97-G
mas	1104	A2338BA-D	 B233A72-G
mas	1328	A100368-D	 A100663-F
mas	1601	B000000-D	 A000200-G
mas	1910	A1009B9-D	 A1009AE-G
mas	2308	A789653-D	 B789AAD-G
mas	2407	B310435-E	 A310AAB-G
mas	2718	A100ACH-D	 A100854-F
mas	2731	B100000-E	 A100203-G
mas	3122	A000100-D	 A000300-G
mas	3211	B25679C-D	 B256AEC-G

A brief, nonprogrammatic look at this seems to indicate that TL does not
vary dependent on any other variable (witness the number of XXX000
worlds with tech levels). This is not right, as many others
have said, and should be based on a combination of the population and the
conditions they need to live under. 

Maybe I should look at the relationships between the M0 and the M1100
data...

(also the apparent multiplicity of worlds in massilia 0720)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1401
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